Near our camp for the Summer Rubber tramp Rendezvous near Flagstaff, AZ.
As you might know, I’m doing a series of posts reviewing 2013. It was my intention to not just have photos, but to recap some of the lessons I learned through the year. In my last post covering April, I forgot to recap some of the lessons I’ve learned. It just slipped my mind! In my defense I can say that I was right in the middle of a cold when I wrote and posted it so I wan’t at my best and just wanted to get something posted. But, April brought me a very important lesson that I don’t want to just pass over so I’m going to look at it now.
My friends Steve camp near Williams, AZ nestled in the tall Ponderosa Pine.
My mom lives in a retirement community in Florida, and it is wall-to-wall with elderly retired people. And they all appear to be living wonderful lives and having lots of fun. At first glance it makes the American Dream look very attractive! These are people who had worked hard all their lives, finally retired and then retired to paradise in Florida to live out their golden years in comfort. But while I was at my moms house after the cruise was over my step-father fell and broke his hip.
Homer and Zeke loved playing in our small pond during the heat.
There were many beautiful wildflowers around the ponds. That’s my van in the background.
Gloria and Judy hugging a big Ponderosa near our Williams camp.
Gathering at Summer RTR near Flagstaff, AZ.
We stayed in the Prescott National Forest until the end of April when it was time to move on. Their were two reason we were determined to move: 1) It was getting hot and we wanted to go to where it was cooler 2) We were under assault by some kind of tiny insect that was eating us all up. It was so tiny we couldn’t see it but it’s bite was terrible! It was huge and very itchy and took a very long time to go away. It was time to go!
So we got out maps and did the research and decided to move to the Kaibab National Forest very near to Williams AZ. My friend Steve headed out first and found us a great spot! So we joined him there. We stayed there until June when we moved over to the Coconino National Forest near Flagstaff, AZ for the Summer Rubber Tramp Rendezvous.
Out for a walk at the Summer RTR. Flagstaff is just on the other side of the hill right in front of us.
We found a great place for the RTR about 5 miles West of Flagstaff, AZ, There were abut 40 of us total,the weather was perfect, and we all had a great time. The summer RTR is less formal and busy that the winter one so it was a relaxed time for all.
Another Lesson Learned: Always have a story ready to tell the Ranger
While we were at the RTR I had a very odd encounter with a Forest Serve Law Enforcement Officer who explained that the Coconino NF was now interpreting the “No Residential Use of the Forest” Rule to mean that because full-time RVers do not have a residence anywhere else were residing in the Forest and could be given a fine for spending even one night in the National Forest. I was lucky and the LEO said he was supposed to fine me, but he wasn’t going to. As a result of that incident I started researching that new interpretation of the law and found it was for real and happening on a regular basis.
Pizza Party at summer RTR.
Chili dinner at the Summer RTR.
A map to where my land is located.
Hey Bob,
I like that idea of buying a cheap piece of land to protect yourself from the laws that are designed to try to make us conform.
Now’s the time to plant 2 trees on it close enough to each other to hang your retirement hammock on for the future.
Cheers,
Richard
I’m not sure if any trees will grow there without watering. I’ll have to look into it.
Bob
That was my point. For some of us we need help to re-learn how to process information and to understand how our brain works. This is not intuitive stuff that the application of common sense will carry the day. There are necessary basic tools, many of which can be gleaned from reading, that are absolutely necessary to get on the path to happiness. All of my advanced education was worthless in the battle to be happy and to understand myself. I only wanted to point out that there are basic tools each person needs to sort things out. Without them it’s like trying to build a log cabin with a pocket knife.
I agree Gary. In fact I suspect that intelligence and education are generally a detriment to finding true happiness in life.
Speaking only for myself, I didn’t find happiness until I stripped life down to its most very basic and lived at that level.
Bob
Hi, Bob. I remember well the Forest Service’s scare tactics, but I do not remember seeing before that you actually bought land in AZ. If I am not mistaken (and I might be), if you claim that land as your residence, you are required to have an AZ driver’s license and pay taxes in AZ, etc. One can own land in many states, but whichever one you claim as your residence is the state you must pay taxes in, etc. That’s a big benefit of the SD special rules for full-time RVers. SD does not require you to have a physical address in the state in order to be legally considered a resident and their laws reflect that.
My plan is to write to the forest supervisor and perhaps cc the national headquarters. I want to ask them to clarify the policy and at the same time point out the major problems with it:
1. Their agency is attempting to nullify a state’s laws that legally allow me to be a SD resident. The ranger was telling you that he has a higher authority than the state of SD in determining if you are a SD resident.
2. If someone is obeying FS rules and staying only 14 days in one location, then they cannot be residing there by definition. They are only staying 14 days and then staying 14 days in another location. If that makes it a residence, then all campers would be required to get an AZ driver’s license, vehicle registration, etc. Can you imagine going to a Flagstaff DMV and saying you want an AZ driver’s license to be legal for the next 14 days by the Forest Service’s definition?
3. The impact on the forest is the same whether I have a house in SD or NJ or no physical home at all. An attempt to require a physical home is discrimination.
4. If they are enforcing this on anyone, then they must enforce it on all campers. They must ask all the people in the Class As and expensive Class Bs and Cs as well as van dwellers. Otherwise, it is called profiling.
In the letter, I plan to mention that I think the ACLU would be interested in the forest supervisor’s reply, as would the many blogs read by all kinds of RVers because this affects an entire class (class action). I think someone needs to demand accountability from that forest’s management. There is no logical reason to harass people who are following forest service rules and staying only the allowed number of days.
Carla, in every way you are right and I agree! But, you are using logic and reason, and that simply doesn’t apply here!!! It is a totally illogical and unreasonable. I’d love to hear what replies you get to your letters, stay in touch!
Bob
I’m going to spend some time on that letter to the Coconino Forest supervisor, and I was trying to find the exact wording in the FS regulations about not establishing a residence. That is the line they are “interpreting” differently than any other NF. I was trying to access the June blog posts here, Bob, but I guess the older ones are not yet in the archive. One of the commenters had posted the actual wording.
I also looked a the Coconino site and their listed rules for dispersed camping. They do have a line that I had not found in other Forest’s guidelines: “Establishing residency is against federal regulation.”
The whole list can be found here: http://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/coconino/recreation/camping-cabins/?cid=stelprdb5313448
I think that is their way of “warning” — but I’m still on the search for the overall Forest Service regulation that prohibits a residence so I can quote it in my letter to Coconino management. I’ll continue my search tomorrow.
Carla, it’s a simple law, but like all government regulations it is very long and difficult. Here is the whole pertinent law on pdf that you can download:
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2012-title36-vol2/pdf/CFR-2012-title36-vol2-part261.pdf
36 CFR is the general area Part 261 is the specific law. Especially read 261.2 which is the definitions and 261.10 which is prohibitions on NF land. It prohibits establishing any kind of Residence and it defines Residence to specifically include RVs and campers.
Bob
Here is a page laying out the issue:
http://www.rvnetwork.com/index.php?showtopic=93468
Thank you so much for your entertaining posts. I really enjoy them.
You’re very welcome Lenora!
Bob
Thank you for the pictures and for the illustration of why people need to live in the present.
I agree with Carla’s reasoning on the Forest Service residency rule. I doubt whether the Forest Service knows or cares whether you have a residence elsewhere, though. They’ve just decided to use that as a way to keep “those people” off what they see as their land.
I encourage people to be courteous and obedient to anyone with a badge and a weapon, but the event need not stop with the officer. We need to follow the example RVers set whenever a town decides to outlaw overnighting in parking lots. The RV community has a very strong history of overturning such laws by emailing and phoning town officials and explaining how much money they lose because of the ensuing boycott. Obviously the details of National Forests make the details different. However, perhaps the Forest Service would listen to a few hundred (or a few thousand) letters each offering to sue for our legitimate right to use the National Forest in the same way as anyone else. That might not be the exact campaign but I’m sure you get the idea.
Calvin, it might be worth a try, certainly no harm done.
Bob
Bob:
You are way off base with some of your ideas. People with jobs and homes often raised families and contributed to society, as a whole. They built communities, gave back to their neighbors and led productive lives. Some people had satisfying hobbies, did charitable works and were good parents. With advancing age comes declining health. It doesn’t always mean that an unhappy life was sacrificed for limited pleasure at a time when good health is waning.
The issue is whether or not you have lived the life YOU have chosen rather than the one others expected you to live. I can’t say that I have been the model for such a mantra, but this wisdom has come to me soon enough to make an effort to live it.
Gary, you are absolutely right, many people lived exactly the lives they thought they wanted and I’m very happy for them.
I can’t help but wonder how many have great regrets in their old age and given the chance they would go back and change everything. I have two goals in all my writing 1) to get people to THINK honestly about themselves and their lives and not just go through the motions of life in blind obedience to everything they’ve been told. I often do that by challenging the things I see as wrong. 2) Having challenged people, I offer them my knowledge on how to change their lives through vandwelling.
My suggestion is, if you don’t want to be challenged, don’t read the blog, because they go together. On the other hand, if I challenge you and you’re satisfied with your life I think I’ve done you a favor. An examined life is a richer life.
Bob
An examined life is definitely a richer one. I have struggled with freeing myself from subconscious thought patterns that have prevented me from discovering who I am. With much help I have slowly de-linked myself from childhood survival modes of thought that have adversely colored my life because I lacked the tools to identify and discard them. Even with professional help, sadly, they often drag me back to darker places, until I can recognize where my mind has gone and again join the wondrous world around me. So, challenge away, but some of your readers could well profit from some more, in depth, personal help.
Gary_
How am I supposed to afford therapy…when I’m tryin’ to live on $30 a day? It’s just not in the budget.
openspaceman, no, therapy is not an option for most of us!
Bob
Gary, I wish you the very best as you wrestle with your demons. I understand and I am very sympathetic. I have spent many, many hours battling my own–some battles I won, and many I have lost! I’m very grateful that I’ve finally come to a place of relative peace, but I don’t get any of the credit. it was given to me was a gift from a Higher Power.
There is no question that some of my readers could benefit from professional help!
Bob
Twelve step programs have provided a sort of therapy for many who could not afford it otherwise. In addition to AA there is Alanon, Adult Children of Alcoholics, Emotions Anonymous, and others. I highly recommend these programs to all of us who need help figuring out how to live a new way.
Linda I agree totally and I am a firm believer that the 12 Steps of AA can perform literal miracles. However, they are also some of the most difficult things a human being can do and generally only the truly desperate can follow them. But simply finding a community you can belong to can be life-changing so it’s still worth doing.
Bob
Linda_
I was just tryin’ to lighten things up with a joke…but I understand their are some people goin through some challenging stuff and I apologize. Peace.
Since forever… people have lived, worked, ate, raised families and continued working until they could not because their bodies wore out. Then they died.
We are living in ‘The Golden Age’ today. Enjoy it!
Yes, it’s a “Golden Age” isn’t it, almost a heaven on earth! Actually Rob, that isn’t true at all. Our hunter-gatherer ancestors lives were far better than ours. The idea of hours of back-breaking toil was totally foreign to them. That was an invention of agriculture and civilization. When we tried to get them to work the way we wanted them to, it was nearly impossible.
That’s my recommendation to everybody on the blog as well.
Bob
Gad! What a challenge. I would hope it was just that one Ranger and he “mis-spoke” to use a gentle term. It makes no sense. But some things in life never make sense.
Am enjoying your posts and adventures. Keep it up.
Thanks Pam. I’ve done a lot of research since then and there is zero doubt in my ind that it is the policy of the Coconino NF. Fortunately there are very few others that are following their example.
Bob
My Dad just had a stroke at 71. He retired at 65, sat around for six months, went back to work and they finally forced him out at 70. He never had time for me and my brother’s ball games. He said he was always working late hours. We never went fishing with him. When it came time for him to help with our college he said he didn’t have the money. But you were working all the time so how does that compute. Bottom line he was a terrible father who worked all the time because he didn’t have the creativity or courage to do something with his life. Enjoy it now and don’t regret not having lots of money. Being poor isn’t having little it’s wanting more. You are all Rich!! Thanks and love the pics Bob!
Martin, the one thing you owe him big time for is setting an example of how NOT to live your life.
My dad was a whole better to me than yours was to you. But he retired at 60 and was dead by 62. His example set my life on a different course and for that I am very grateful
Bob
Bob_
Just curious because I’m flyin’ underneath the radar in a pretty high crime area…with alot of police presence …which I’m thankful for. Haven’t had a knock on my door yet…and I know I’m not the most stealthy…I think they recognize me and my patterns so at least I’m hoping. But the question I have is when you encountered the ranger were you in a caravan of 30 vans? Because that would draw some attention even if your just chillin’.
I have had two attempted break ins though…my van has a indicator on the dash when someone tries to open a door…so I always double check it’s locked. Can’t wait to get out of the city.
*I know it’s not as easy of a life as you make it look in your pictures…but it seems like a dream to me. Thanks for that.
openspaceman, I’m at a point in my life when money issues are pretty solved for me, so this life really is a dream come true for me. Hopefully it will be for you also!
Bob
openspaceman, yes, we were a group and that did get his attention. But he had been to a friends camp the day before and said the exact same thing. There were just two of them so it wasn’t the size of the group.
Bob
I like your address location. In fact when this discussion was held on the forum a couple of weeks ago I began to look around for a piece of property that would serve as a home base of sorts. Northern Arizona is at the top of the list.
Looking on the land for less site and researching the beneficial tax locations; AZ, TX and NM are the preferable states in the west with FL in the east. SD has the favorable remote residency rules and important mail could go through there but personally I would not enjoy a winter in the northern plains.
I really enjoy the whole vagabond life idea. The collective resources on this site and throughout the internet show how well it can be done. Correct planning is important and frankly it may not be for everyone so an alternative plan should be included.
jonthebru, having land has several advantages and if you get it cheap enough I think it’s a good idea. This life is definitely not for everyone! I’ve had a few bad experiences of people who turned to it out of necessity and they just could not cope with it. I need to find a way to discourage a few people from trying it, but It’s impossible to say who can handle it and who can’t.
Bob
Interesting reply, Bob. If you could generalize, who would you NOT recommend this style of life to? When WON’T it be likely to work out?
Doug, I wish I could offer some warning signs or guidelines but it isn’t that simple. Here is what I would try to boil it down to:
1) Lack of common sense. That really does define some people I meet out here. They can’t seem to think things through and reach wise conclusions. They think thing through and then do the dumbest possible thing. I’ve run into that on several occasions.
2) Fear dominated. Some people are just too afraid to live this far out of their comfort zone.
Bob
First I would like to congratulate Bob on owning piece of America.
I live in Texas, which is known for no state income tax. I think we make up for it on property taxes. I found this site that may be of some interest.
http://www.tax-rates.org/
The Cat in the Hat got it right when talking about aging! (I didn’t want to post it because of a couple words in it; you can Google it if you want to read it.)
I had a couple coworkers retire. One died about 7 months after retirement. The other always wanted a motorcycle, so he bought one. Shortly thereafter he wrecked it because he passed out while riding. He was OK. (His health was not the best, and his age was a contributing factor.) A couple friends who were married had plans to increase their traveling, but decided to postpone it until they retired so they could have more time to enjoy it. She got cancer and passed away never fulfilling their wish to travel.
Also, did Homer the dog get to see the ports of the Caribbean?
Canine, it’s hearing sad stories like those that get you to thinking and reconsidering your life isn’t it!! I know they did for me.
No Homer stayed home from that trip. We are lucky enough to have some wonderful friends who love Homer and Homer loves them so he just stays with them when I have to travel!
Bob
“Man.
Because he sacrifices his health in order to make money.
Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health.
And then he is so anxious about the future that he does not enjoy the present;
the result being that he does not live in the present or the future;
he lives as if he is never going to die, and then dies having never really lived.”
-Dalai Lama
Wow, thanks Forrest, that’s great stuff!
Bob
Another great post Bob! Thank you Forrest for the Awesome quote. I have just completed converting my van for living. I found virtually all the information I needed to do that through Bob’s site and blog. In a time where there was hopelessness in my life and feeling completely lost… Bob’s blog was like a ray of shining light in a dark world. I’ve seen that his views can be abrasive to some readers, but it was just what I needed. Fortunately, I have common sense and a lot of mechanical skills, as well as have grown up primitive camping and backing, Boys Scouts, survival training, etc. I am making my transition to the van life in about 2 weeks. I will be stealth camping in southern California around my job until I pay off a tax debt and acquire some savings, then will be doing some traveling.
Sorry about the long comment. Bob, I would very much like to do a guest post on your blog. Please contact me via email. I am taking pics and videos today. I would really love to share my story and the van that I am so proud of 🙂
-Brian
No problem at all Brian, I LOVE hearing stories like yours! I’ll send you an email.
Bob
Brain , how long it took u convert your van into camper van?. Also I live in northern California I want to do the same but I never fixed anything in my life.lol. Will willing to do it for money for someone like me??
hey now bob, heading your way tomorrow morning you need anything?
Hey Gary, it will be great to see you again! Thanks for the generous offer but I don’t need anything right now. See you soon!
Bob
I don’t quite understand why it would be necessary to buy land to establish a physical residence. If you have a street address on your DL and vehicle registration, why wouldn’t that be sufficient? I can’t imagine that the NFS actually would check into whether you in fact lived there. If you have an address in SD, do they automatically come to the conclusion that you are a transient?
Bob, the problem is the Rangers know all about full-time RVers and mail forwarders. They know having an address in South Dakota, Livingston, Texas, or Pahrump, NV is meaningless. They ask a series of questions and unless you are lying it’s obvious you are a full-timer. I told him I lived in Pahrump, NV and then he asked me if I rented or owned. Then he asked how much time I spent there. Most people don’t even think to hide it, they just tell them they are full-timers. That’s why I wrote this, so you will be prepared and have a story ready.
Once they are satisfied you are a full-timer, they write the ticket and its up to you to go to court and prove them wrong or that the law is unconstitutional. So far no one has taken them to court.
You can download the law as a pdf from here:
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/granule/CFR-2011-title36-vol2/CFR-2011-title36-vol2-part261/content-detail.html
It simply says that residing in the Forest is illegal and defines “Residing” to include living in an RV.
Bob
Bob, thanks for the links you sent me on the regulation and definitions. I am under deadline for a project but will take time to compose a detailed and well written letter to the Cococino supervisor in a week or two (well before summer season). I also used it to feed the info to a national reporter who may look into it, too.
In the meantime, when you look at official definitions, the rangers had been using the definition of “residence” (which is so general, I don’t know how it passed their legal team). BUT, in that same official document of definitions, read the one for “Camping.” What you’ll see is that it is completely arbitrary as to which definition a ranger might put someone in camper under.
Depending on the response I get from the forest supervisor, my next step after that might be to inquire of the ACLU to see if they would be interested in representing a class action.
Carla, thanks for doing all that work!! The definitions are so broad and vague that any Ranger can interpret it any way he wants. It clearly says an a tent, camper or RV is a residence in the Forest. But obviously they are not ALL residences or NOBODY would be allowed in. So each Ranger gets decide which one he will let in and which he will fine.
The ACLU might be interested because their main goal is to keep the homeless out of the Forest and the ACLU has been staunch defenders of the them.
Bob
Thanks for your reply to my post on 1/16 (added “L” to avoid confusion between the Bobs). I’ve read around some more and I do see what you mean. I’m bookmarking this to see what happens with Carla’s efforts!
Bob, the more attention we can bring to this the better. What they are doing is so ridiculous it can’t possibly stand up to close scrutiny.
Bob
Bob, sounds like you have had an interesting and predictable interaction with the Federal Gov. If you can’t lick them maybe you want to join them, become a Capitalist landlord and start renting out space at your new address to fellow RV-ers.
Keith
Sounds like a good idea! You ready to sign up?
Bob
I have been a resident and business owner in Yavapai County Arizona for over twenty years. Coconino, Tonto and Prescott National Forests are seperated by highways near Sedona (Hwy-89A), Cottonwood (Hwy-260) and Camp Verde (Hwy I-17). Recently, I retired and decided to spend some time with my son in our RV’s. I never had the time to view the area and besides we needed a well deserved vacation to explore, do a little gold panning and try out our rigs. We spent a week outside Thousand Trails getting use to our 5th wheels in a free dispursed camping area. The camp host was nice but when he took everyones vehicle license numbers on a daily basis I thought…now that’s odd. No matter where we went we were hounded by Forest Service employees. They did not care if you owned property, they did not care if you moved every fourteen days, they made it clear that you could not hop from forest to forest. You had to go from state to state otherwise they considered it living in your RV. One woman that we met that was homeless living in her van was ticketed/fined $800.00. She obtained an attorney. I don’t know the outcome, but I did learn that “forest cops” here can set fines at any amount they wish. Arial planes fly regularly over certain areas and radio location on campers for ground patrols. There are a lot of people in RV’s and tents roving around between these three forests. Even the local Walmart gathers plenty of campers in their parking lot on a continual basis. Just how many are actually living out there for real is any bodys guess. I firmly believe that Arizona will end up like Colorado with blocked dirt roads and no access to anyone. Looking at Agenda 21 it won’t be long before we will not be allowed to go 300′ beyond any city on foot, horseback or vehicle of any kind. No more fishing and hunting and no more freedom in the outdoors. It can’t be done? They declare a plant,fish, animal or reptile endangered and our camping days are over.
Cheryl, I’ve experienced exactly what you are talking about in the Coconino NF and I hear it is exactly the same way in the Prescott and Kaibab. Fortunately, it is limited to very a few areas in the U.S. Most National Forests are nothing like that. If you were to go almost anywhere else you won’t have those problems.
Also, there are places in the Kaibab NF where I’ve camped for a long time and never saw a Ranger. The Ranger just came by here and started the 14 day clock so we will move to the Kaibab NF nearFlagstaff where we can sit until May when we go north to Alaska.
I don’t expect this problem to spread, it’s just a few areas that get overwhelmed with the homeless and fulltimers that they have declared war on us. Most places we are still welcomed.
Bob
Dear all,
I have been researching for some time now how to live cheaply and or homestead to live as free as I could like the cowboys of old. I am afraid that those days might be coming to and end sooner rather than later.
In Arizona regulations have made what looked like a conservative state from the outside become a little too much like a controlling blue state. Even if you own your own land you cannot place a rv on it and live without permits based on time limits to build a home.
Fulltimeing on national forest lands are not living on national forests its just a one long vation as I see it.
It is this very thing that they want to end. They want to use you up than spit you out.
Unfortunately its not the 70’s anymore. Can it be done today at someplace, at some national forest? Yes I think it can. But time is running out for us.
I am not living that way now nor have I ever. So I cant tell you firsthand what to expect from forest service cops.
What I can tell you is that the noose is closing and with computers tracking lic plates it would be very easy to track someone’s movements and deny them access or prosecute them for “breaking the rules”.
I tell ya one knock on my door at 12:00am by a ranger or the constant approach of these scumbags into my camp or the hiding out in bushes and looking and spying on me wld make me not want to stay there. And that’s exactly what they are trying to do. Agenda 21. Its heart breaking.
Hot Rod, there really are lots and lots of places where you will never see a Ranger! Everybody goes to the most desirable places and then get into trouble. Go back a little deeper and remote and you will be fine.
There is so much land that even if they wanted to catch and stop us, they simply can not.
Bob